Sixtysomething Podcast Episode 14 - A Conversation with My Daughter, Juliet

Sixtysomething Podcast - Episode 14 - A Conversation with My Daughter, Juliet

[00:00:00] GTS: I would like to welcome my daughter, Juliet, to the podcast. Hi Juliet. Welcome to 60 something. Hi. Hi mom. How are you today? I'm good. I'm good. Now, just a little bit about Juliet. She's 31. She's my youngest child of my five children. She has four older brothers and three children of her own.

[00:00:24] GTS: This episode is a follow up to the previous two episodes, which were about adult children and our relationships with them and how estrangement from our adult children sometimes happens and why it happens and what it's like and. What you can try to do about it and Juliet and I have had our ups and downs since she became an adult And I thought it might be helpful for my listeners and myself and even Juliet herself to talk About it a little bit.

[00:00:58] GTS: It's not the kind of thing you talk about [00:01:00] very often You know what do you think about that, Juliet? I think that sounds good, and I think that probably a lot of people can relate, so I think yeah, that's what I'm hoping. Especially mothers, I think it can be a complicated relationship sometimes.

[00:01:14] GTS: Yeah, sometimes boys are simpler. Now, I always open the episode with a quote, and I think you will recognize this one. If you're a bird, I'm a bird. That's from The Notebook, one of our favorite movies when Juliet was growing up. And I think Juliet, she used to say that to me, and it exemplifies what our relationship was like when she was a little girl.

[00:01:44] GTS: We were super close and she probably wanted to be like me for quite a while. And then she started forging her own identity, but I think that's part of the estrangement story. So we'll get to that anyway, [00:02:00] Juliet, jump in any time you want to.

[00:02:03] GTS: I just want to give a brief explanation of the story of us from my perspective as. It's a 60 something here on the 60 something podcast. Love it. Sounds good. Okay. So very briefly, we were really, I think you'd agree, as close as a mother and daughter could be until you were maybe 23, about then.

[00:02:26] GTS: We didn't live close, you lived far away, but we managed to talk and visit a lot. And then when you were 23, you met the man that would become your husband. You also joined a church at the same time and became very involved. And I think both of those things were a big part of our relationship changing profoundly.

[00:02:50] GTS: I've realized over time, which I've mentioned in previous episodes, that I wanted everything to stay the same with [00:03:00] us and with your brothers and our family as a whole, and you guys needed to individuate. And you needed to, distinguish yourself from me and my identity and your family identity.

[00:03:15] GTS: And that's been a hard thing for me to get my mind around, but it's helped. It's helped to see that some of this is just, a natural thing that would have happened anyway, but I think because your husband was narcissistic and possessive and you found a new family without all the complications of your family of origin in the church family, that all may have played a part in, our becoming distant.

[00:03:48] GTS: And I also think that communication just ground to a halt, and there were so many misunderstandings. What are your thoughts about that? [00:04:00] I think that there was already some individual stuff that was happening, maybe even before that early 20s kind of thing, where we were still really close, but we would butt heads a little bit more.

[00:04:10] GTS: Or There were just things that would happen where I was becoming an adult and maybe I didn't always agree like I used to and saw things between us in a different lens, but I think things did completely change when I did, not immediately, but once I got married to my now ex husband, when you're talking about him negatively, I agree, but I think some of it is less. normal situation and some of it is more that's what happens when you get into an abusive relationship. And I think that some of it becomes more personalized when it's really not personal.

[00:04:44] GTS: No matter who you were or what our relationship was, when, You get into an abusive relationship. And now that I'm two years out of a five year relationship like that, I can see that I think that's what happens in 90 percent of those kinds of relationships. I [00:05:00] don't know how much of it was really you or how much of it was really me.

[00:05:04] GTS: I think some of that would have happened anyway, but I think the majority of any estrangement wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for that. Yeah. I think that it's its own animal, but , it's still worth asking the questions.

[00:05:18] GTS: First of all, I think it happens a lot. So a lot of people listening to this are going to be able to relate, but even more normal estrangement where there is no. Narcissist or abusive person involved. I think some of this can also apply to that. I'm curious, do you think that anything I could have done on my side could have helped this situation or?

[00:05:46] GTS: Was it just doomed once it started? I think that there's two different kind of answers. Like the first part I think is no matter what it would have happened, because when you're in a relationship like that, it becomes isolating. So then at first it was [00:06:00] just you and family, and then it became the church community, that you were referring to, then we were estranged from them.

[00:06:06] GTS: So I think that like That's true. And then I think that when you're just talking about maybe more normal situations, I think no matter what, there's usually stuff that people can do on both ends to maybe prevent that in our case. I honestly don't even really remember all of it, but I think that don't ever write letters. Just in general, I'm referring to when we were estranged . My mom wrote me a letter that she had well intentioned that I received as. I didn't receive it well. To me, it seemed like you do what you're gonna do, I wish you well, if you love something, let it go type of thing.

[00:06:40] GTS: That's not what you said, , but that's how I received it. And in my eyes, I felt like What mom says that that felt hurtful, but in your eyes, you didn't mean anything like that. So I think that even just something to take bigger picture is maybe don't write long text messages or letters, maybe try to have a phone call or try to have, a meetup or even [00:07:00] something with another family member.

[00:07:01] GTS: Now, there's a lot of. Therapy type of stuff, that kind of thing, which we did try. And I don't think that was harmful. But at the time that was also still with my ex husband. So I don't know how helpful it really was, but I think that just in general, face to face communicating versus miscommunication can happen a lot.

[00:07:19] GTS: I'm curious because in my mind, I think to myself back then that first of all, I wouldn't have thought you would have been open to that. And secondly, it's a really hard thing to do. So I probably would have been a little resistant to it deep down. It's so much easier to write a letter. And I think people of my generation are more likely to do something like write a letter.

[00:07:44] GTS: But you're saying, what I hear you saying is that you would have been open if I would have said let's get together and talk about this. And you think that would have been more effective. [00:08:00] It's hard to say because of the situation, but I think that, yes, and I think that the communication in the letter probably was more harmful than if we would have had a communication face to face.

[00:08:11] GTS: Okay that's really interesting to me. What do you think about because I think you'll recall that I would try and then I would retreat and in general when I look back, I think just waiting it out, just which was what the letter was about. I'm going to wait this out

[00:08:28] GTS: but I guess that's a very bad idea. I think that from other stories that I've heard and stuff too, I think that maybe parents, like more your generation, can sometimes be like we'll just wait for the reach out. And then I think as adult children, sometimes you're like, As my parent, you're supposed to be the one.

[00:08:48] GTS: Banging down my door, and I think that sometimes both sides can be a little bit prideful and I think that from your side when you're trying and you're not getting anything back, you then you get upset and you get your [00:09:00] feelings hurt, which is valid, but I think that then sometimes as children, it can be hard because you're like just keep trying.

[00:09:05] GTS: Deep down you feel abandoned, even as an adult child, when the adults are like, okay, fine, whatever, I won't call you. You call me. Yes. That's not the way to go. But too pushy is bad too, right?

[00:09:17] GTS: I think be normal, yeah. Yeah. Read the room, like maybe don't text five texts in one day if you guys are not on speaking terms, I'll do therapy with you or, that kind of thing. I think my generation is much more into that kind of stuff.

[00:09:30] GTS: And I think that the older generation shies away from that more, but I think that is something that is a very good insight. That I confess. I didn't know. I didn't even know till now. On our side, you're waiting it out, and you feel like nothing will ever change, and you feel rejected, and then you feel angry and resentful that this could happen, what would you say, that's my side, what would you say was the worst of [00:10:00] this whole five to six year period of time when we were?

[00:10:04] GTS: On the outs mostly, I think the hardest I feel like there's 2 things that are like coming to my mind. Like the 1st thing probably like when I had Isabella, which is my oldest child just the fact that we weren't close at that time. We really were pretty much.

[00:10:19] GTS: Not on speaking terms around then. I think that was sad, to have us be so close and then to just really not be close at all when I had my own daughter like that was sad. And I'm sure for you too. And then I feel like. The later period where, cause even at that point I was still like under the framework that it was you I was mad at you for this.

[00:10:43] GTS: And I didn't feel like it was me or my husband at the time, like I blamed him a little bit, but for the most part, I feel like the blame was more towards you, honestly. I don't mean to interrupt. Cause I want to hear the second part. But. What was I doing? What did I do? I just mean [00:11:00] in general, I felt more like it was your fault that we weren't close.

[00:11:03] GTS: And I feel what was tough too was then like on the latter half, once, I was coming out of maybe some of my delusion of, my, the toxicity and maybe the isolation. So maybe towards the last six months to a year before I separated from my then husband was like feeling like we were starting to repair stuff, but then taking a few steps forward only to take 15 steps back and feeling like it wasn't your fault that it was him and not knowing what to do.

[00:11:35] GTS: We were getting better, where you were coming to visit, where things were good. And then all of a sudden something happened. I, again, I don't even remember the details, but where he got upset with you. And then it was like, Oh, all of that for nothing. You know what I mean?

[00:11:47] GTS: And then the frustration, I didn't know where to put it because I was still married to this person, but really feel like you hadn't done anything wrong. So it was like at that point. My, my lens was shifting a little bit. And I think that was [00:12:00] one of the harder parts too, where it was like, I wanted that, but I, there wasn't really a way for me to have it, yeah, that's really very valuable insight. I would add to that, as you mentioned before, the letter, the aftermath of the letter for me was the worst of all of it because we didn't really, we didn't Because I write the letter, I think I'll hear from you a couple months go by and then, then, but it was good.

[00:12:31] GTS: It got me to see things a little bit, a bit differently. Okay, so I just, I do, I want to stop here because I want to say that to your credit. To your credit as a big hearted, loyal person, that after one of the many skirmishes with your husband between really me and him, but also your dad, you told [00:13:00] me that you had told him, I can't just never speak to my parents again.

[00:13:07] GTS: And that's really important to me that, in the midst of basically a barrage of negative events and information, you clung to whatever remnants of our relationship remained. And that is a really great thing. Would you say that there were obstacles? In our relationship, even after you and your husband separated. Yeah, but again, I think it's specific to what my situation was where Again, I don't know.

[00:13:44] GTS: Maybe more people can relate to even that, but I think that me and you have talked about this before, but a lot of it is like, it's not really like a me and you thing. It's like a me thing. It's like after being in, a verbally, physically, Emotionally abusive relationship for five years.

[00:13:58] GTS: You're just not really the same [00:14:00] person. And it takes a while to get certain parts of yourself back, and so I think that there's a lot of that. And so I think that impacted our relationship and a lot of my relationships in general. And I just think that there was definitely, some tension between us.

[00:14:18] GTS: I think that a lot of it did take time because some of it wasn't really about you, it was about me, just my, on my own, but I had to just work through and then some of it was just I think over time you have to just rebuild and I think that was something that I had felt from you sometimes that you wanted it to just.

[00:14:38] GTS: Be right back. Even before I separated that you just wanted, like you mentioned, to just go back to how it was when I was a little kid. And it was just, that just wasn't going to happen, and so I think that it takes time to rebuild the relationship on your side too, from, cause it's like, it was different from me to you.

[00:14:56] GTS: I just think that we had to rebuild a new relationship. [00:15:00] And I feel two years later, we're in a really good place, but that's two years. Yeah, that's a long time and I admit I was disappointed and frustrated that once this toxic element was removed, that things didn't just snap back into place or some semblance of what it once was, and it didn't, but I think there were lingering, maybe misconceptions.

[00:15:27] GTS: You had about me and us and also you're detoxing basically. And I didn't really think about that. You don't think about it unless you're forced to where it's like, why is this like this? And you tend to be critical of yourself, yeah I guess she doesn't even like me anymore.

[00:15:46] GTS: That kind of thing. But it, it takes some time. I would say, I would advise anybody in this situation to give it some time. Do you think guilt, I made a [00:16:00] big deal about how all this ruined my life and all of that, do you think that played any part in our being able to come back together?

[00:16:10] GTS: Meaning, did I feel like you were being, too dramatic, or? Yeah, I think that might've, been an element of it and I think that it's just normal sometimes for somebody to be thinking about their own perspective. And there were times that I felt like you were concerned about Your part of this ruined my life or Oh, why does, this person, your ex husband, why does he hate me so much?

[00:16:33] GTS: Sometimes I felt like that took a little bit of time to have Hey, it's literally not about this part is not about just you or, whatever. Then I think some of it was just also like having conversations, I think. And yeah, I think that sometimes the grand statements. Are a little over the top, but I also think that that like a big part, a good part of repairing [00:17:00] was time and then I also felt like there was a point in time where I give you credit because I think, you called me one time and just said, hey, I feel like there's still, I don't even remember how you worded it, but I feel like there's just still something and I just want us to be close, but it wasn't like this big heavy thing.

[00:17:19] GTS: I felt like it was genuine and it wasn't like self deprecating to where it was like it felt burdensome. It was just like, Hey, I still feel like there's a little bit of something like. Is there something we can do or is there, and I felt like enough time had gone by too, and I felt like even that time that we talked, that helped me to be like, to ask myself is there, and then to allow you into Some of the ways that it wasn't, I feel like that's the time that I shared Hey, some of this stuff is not you.

[00:17:45] GTS: It's just taking me time. And then I think in that conversation, I told you about some little things that had been bothering me, but I think bringing stuff up and allowing spaces of vulnerability without this, like heaviness or like burdening or you [00:18:00] Self deprecating ish about it was like is helpful, but I also think that you can't do that until there's a bit of a foundation.

[00:18:07] GTS: Realizing you're starting from the beginning. Baby steps, like on my side, baby steps, working toward the goal of becoming closer. You're not going to snap right back into it. Yeah, but it makes me laugh a little bit, , but I think part of it is you're accepting me again the way that I am and realizing that I wasn't really trying to manipulate you as much as I was just expressing myself because the conversation that I think you're referring to, , is where I call to tell you that I love you more than anyone else will ever love you.

[00:18:52] GTS: And then moved into, you did start with that. I did. I led with the drama, but I do hear what [00:19:00] you're saying and actually That was unusual. I think you'll admit. I don't do that anymore. I've learned over this Saga, keep it real, keep it down You don't need to make these dramatic statements that whether it's a generational thing or whether it's just It seems like it is manipulative.

[00:19:20] GTS: It doesn't work. That's really what I deal in now when it comes to you kids What works, yeah so, I was going to say, what has change that has helped us, overcome these things and grow closer, and I think you just explained that I felt very sad and at times resentful that I had lost, my relationship with my only daughter.

[00:19:45] GTS: But I have realized, as I've mentioned before, that our relationship had to change. Yeah. Especially, once you had children of your own, that dynamic between [00:20:00] us, It was going to be different and we could have stayed very close. I could have been very involved, but yeah, you were a grown up woman.

[00:20:11] GTS: You really couldn't be my little girl, except, maybe there's moments, but generally not , and that can be a really hard thing. For a mother to adjust to. Yeah. And I just wanna know, make sure that that I know that had to happen now. I know. So do you think estrangement is a generational thing?

[00:20:31] GTS: Do you think it's, let's say, more likely for your generation to become estranged from your parents than say, my generation? For my generation to become estranged. From our parents than your generation with your parents.

[00:20:44] GTS: Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. I do think so because I think there's a lot of like mental health boundaries that kind of stuff for better or for worse. But I think that maybe in your generation that was unheard of. You don't cut your parents off or you don't [00:21:00] talk, like that kind of thing. Whereas now I feel like people do that maybe even a little too. Yeah, I think for, like you said, for better and for worse, it's good to have boundaries, but the communication, it always seems to me, as I study these things, it comes back to a breakdown in communication, where maybe if you made clear to me during that time, I don't think it was entirely clear to you, more what I was doing that were missteps and that kind of thing.

[00:21:32] GTS: But you didn't, I didn't, I just think that the communication breaks down, and then you're really lost. Yeah. And I think we communicate a lot better now. What advice would you give people in the situation that we were in?

[00:21:48] GTS: I think for the parents lean in, and try to humble yourself, even if it's, And I think too, of course, there's also lines of like boundaries for yourself.

[00:21:56] GTS: And I think there's special circumstances and stuff, but [00:22:00] just keep trying because I think you'll never regret trying and you might regret not trying for children. There's a couple of things like one of the things that I think a lot changes when you have your own kids, and then you realize that your parents really were just like doing their best, so I think that even if you don't have kids trying to just remember that, again, outside of toxic, extenuating circumstances and then I think also trying to at least be in communication,

[00:22:27] GTS: Yeah. I also like, if you're a parent, maybe you should think about that too. Were you ever abusive with your kid because maybe that's why they don't have a relationship with you. Another thing too that I think is important that I've said in previous episodes that was just a complete epiphany for me is realizing that you kids think things.

[00:22:51] GTS: That aren't true from my perspective, it is your perception like one of the boys thinking that I [00:23:00] was Not around when I was home every night You know that kind of thing all of a sudden. I just realized this is the perception And I can have some humility about that, and some understanding, and say it's not really where I was at or what I was feeling or thinking.

[00:23:21] GTS: I am sorry. I am so sorry you felt that way. I have found that to be a really powerful way to get rid of some of that resentment that we all carry from our childhoods. That's good. Yeah. So what are your hopes for us? I think we're at a great place right now. So just that things would continue as they have been, and I don't really have anything I don't feel like things could get that much better.

[00:23:55] GTS: I feel like things are really good. So just continuance [00:24:00] of that, but I don't really see anything happening that would change anything. Oh, I think I told you that I, I told you my goal is by the time I die, we will be very close again, and I feel like we're well on the way to that.

[00:24:16] GTS: Yeah, we're close. I feel like a lot of that ice that was it's just broken away, and I feel normal, like, getting back to where I would like for us to be. Me too. And as a matter of fact, I will be seeing you just in another day or so. I know. I'm going to attend Juliet's daughter's graduation from preschool and spend a special day with them, and I really couldn't be more excited and happy and just, again, really delighted about where we are and where we're heading, and I really want to thank you for that.

[00:24:54] GTS: I love you. And I texted you guys a couple of days ago too, but I think that even with. [00:25:00] Us being in a bad place or having ups and downs with my ex who was just awful to you guys, even when I needed somewhere to go and we were not on the best of terms, I always knew that I could, reach out and that I have somewhere to go.

[00:25:16] GTS: And even though when we came in we weren't the best, it wasn't the most You know, enjoyable for you guys, or for me at first, it was never a question of Oh, I can't call them or, Oh, I can't go there. So I think that is also really important and really great. Cause I think some people are like that, I love you and thank you. And I'm glad to. I really feel like that's the bottom line. You always have to be able to go home, quote unquote, to your parents. You have really been such a light in my life, and I would never, ever have wanted to miss what we've had, even with the dark alleys.

[00:25:54] GTS: It's been one of the best things that I've ever experienced. Thank [00:26:00] you for being on the show, and being so forthcoming and sharing. You really are the best and I love you. I love you. Thanks for having me. Okay. Okay. Bye

[00:26:14] GTS: I'm gonna stop this recording and I better let you go because it's 1 11 That was pretty good timing though.

[00:26:22] GTS: You're on schedule. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I think this will be good Like I said, i'll send you the recording you look good. I could definitely make a video out of this Yeah Anyway, thanks a lot. This was good. This was good. And you know what, I think it'll help somebody. And I gotta say, you said some things that I didn't know, that I feel like I didn't realize that I thought like when that letter, I thought you felt like the primary thing was I thought you felt like I was trying to be manipulative, but what I heard was

[00:26:58] GTS: the over [00:27:00] arching reaction to it was something quite different. Yeah, all right. I'm gonna let you go. I love you so much. Love you. Love you, honey. Love you.