Sixtysomething Podcast Episode 13 - (Estrangement from) Our Adult Children - Part 2

Sixtysomething Podcast - Episode 13 - Estrangement from Our Adult Children [00:00:00] GTS: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Sixtysomething. I'm your host, Grace. I'm so glad you're here. Today, we're returning to take a deeper dive into our exploration of the topic of our relationships with our adult children and estrangement from them. [00:00:21] GTS: Estrangement is a painful subject. It's about the emotional or physical distance that somehow finds its way into relationships that were once close. Whether this gap emerges from disagreements on lifestyle values, or even deeper issues, it affects us deeply. Today, we'll discuss how these rifts form, how they impact us, and ways we might begin to bridge these gaps, and what to do if we can't. Types of estrangement can be total or partial. [00:01:01] GTS: Some parents are completely ostracized and cut off from their adult children and their families. Others are tolerated but disapproved of, even disliked, and it's not a secret. Estrangement between us and our adult children happens for a variety of factors. Mental health challenges, either in the parents or the children, can strain relationships significantly. Conditions such as depression, anxiety, or personality disorders can lead to misunderstandings and emotional distance. [00:01:40] GTS: Parents and children might have different expectations about roles, responsibilities, or life choices, leading to conflicts. This could relate to career choices, lifestyles, even values and beliefs. And this includes our arch-nemesis, ageism, the last accepted prejudice. [00:02:03] GTS: Physical trauma, emotional trauma, or sexual abuse are obviously strong catalysts for estrangement. Similarly, perceived slights and disappointments kids experience involving us, parents, can create a kind of trauma that they may have trouble letting go of or forgiving. [00:02:26] GTS: Substance abuse or other addictive behaviors can create barriers. [00:02:30] GTS: As the behaviors associated with addiction can lead to hurtful actions or unreliability. Sometimes spouses, partners, or other influential figures like teachers or pastors, or even close friends can drive a wedge between a parent and an adult child. These individuals may have their own issues that might influence your child's perceptions. Disputes over money, property, or inheritance can lead to bitter feelings and estrangement. Financial dependence or disagreements about financial support can certainly be factors. Poor communication or different communication styles can lead to serious misunderstandings and a breakdown in relationships. This could include a lack of emotional intimacy or not addressing issues as they arise. Life-altering events like a death in the family can sometimes cause estrangement, especially if family members cope in different ways, or if there's blame. As children grow into adults, there may be personality clashes with parents as their true personalities become more defined and apparent, and the differences that were manageable in childhood may become untenable in adulthood. [00:04:03] GTS: Adult children may also feel the need to assert their independence by distancing themselves from their parents. And it can be worse if they feel that their parents are overly controlling or invasive, whether they really are or not. I've read so many stories of estrangement from people on social media, a mother who hasn't spoken to her son in years because of a disagreement over his lifestyle choices, a father who feels replaced after his daughter's marriage. Families torn apart by the extremely polarizing politics of our time. I know several people personally who have experienced extreme alienation from their children. There are a million tales of alienation, but they all share a common thread: pain. [00:04:59] GTS: My own estrangement stories... [00:05:01] GTS: Start with a brief estrangement I had with my dad, relatively brief. We had differing opinions on my divorce from my first husband, and we didn't talk for a year or more after that. But it never would have crossed my mind that that would last forever. Eventually, we made up, as I knew we would, and everything fell back into place. He continued to try to interfere in my life. [00:05:29] GTS: Of course, he did. And I overlooked it. It just wasn't that big a deal to me. Our love was greater than that. But I think this is one of the huge differences in generations. I prioritize the relationship. Younger generations seem not to. As far as my kids go, I was briefly estranged, again, about the same period from my number two son, Brad. I've mentioned him before. I talked about this in the first part of the series, actually. He was married at a very young age, and his wife was pathologically possessive. It was hard for him to be around anyone on our side of the family because it caused so much trouble in his marriage. Eventually, they broke up, and things improved, but I want to say one more thing about Brad, because I think it's relevant. [00:06:28] GTS: Even when his marriage ended, and I saw him more, I became aware that he had some resentments toward me from his childhood. And I really didn't want to hear it. I considered myself about the best, most loving and dedicated mother ever. And I resented any criticism relating to my mothering. My world revolved around my kids. [00:06:54] GTS: I made sacrifices for them. And I couldn't understand how they could, any of them, possibly think I had let them down. [00:07:04] GTS: So even though Brad and I spend time together, this was bubbling beneath the surface. One night, I was visiting him in San Diego, and we went out to a Mexican restaurant. We were having fun, and he suddenly launched into his grievances about the times he felt I'd let him down and hadn't been there for him, or reacted in the caring way he needed me to. And guess what. I listened. I didn't argue. I listened. [00:07:36] GTS: Maybe because I was a few margaritas in. But for the first time, I heard him. And I entertained the possibility that what he was saying was real and true, at least from his perspective. So I apologized. I said, well, that's not how I felt, or what I was thinking at that time, but I can see how you might've thought that. And I am so sorry. Everything changed in that magical moment. Years of feelings of anger and frustration were released. Brad... [00:08:18] GTS: And I have been best friends since that day. And I am so grateful to him for continuing to try to reach me, and for waiting for me to be able to have the tiniest bit of humility so I could hear him and understand. I learned a lot from that experience, and he continues to teach me. He's my Yoda. I've had arguments with my other kids, and sometimes we've not been speaking much for a while, but I've always been pretty motivated to mend fences, especially with them. I don't mind saying I'm sorry. [00:08:57] GTS: And I haven't. No expectation that they will. [00:09:02] GTS: I realized that's a low bar, but although I love to be very close with all five of my kids, I don't expect that. I just want us to be in each other's lives to some degree. The huge, the strange moment I barely survived. It really almost killed me was with the most unexpected of all of them. My daughter, Juliet. I spoke last time about how close we were. [00:09:33] GTS: Even when she moved to San Francisco after high school graduation, we stayed super close, talking and texting most days. And visiting every month or two. I had a beautiful relationship with her longtime first adult boyfriend and was on great terms with their second. She didn't tell me every single thing about her life, her day-to-day. [00:09:54] GTS: And I didn't ask. Kind of a, don't ask, don't tell policy with my young adult daughter living in the city. [00:10:03] GTS: She moved to LA at about age 23 and shortly afterward met the man she would marry when she joined a new church and became very involved with him and the church quickly. He was 10 years older. She told us they were thinking of getting married six weeks after they met. They did not. Aaron and I thought we were on good terms with the guy. We were not, we just didn't know it yet. They ended up eloping and canceling the dinner we planned to get together and celebrate together. So, thanks. [00:10:41] GTS: Didn't really get off to a great start. I never could have imagined how bad it would get. [00:10:47] GTS: My new son-in-law didn't like me, me in particular. And it became clearer as time went on, with insensitive remarks he would make directed toward me, his always getting angry with me when in my presence, and increased distancing from us with them both and a profound change in Juliette's attitude toward me and the rest of the family. We were othered, I think they call it. Eventually, I barely heard from her. [00:11:23] GTS: There were moments when I thought I would die from heartbreak. [00:11:29] GTS: I truly never saw this coming. And around this time, my mother passed away. Juliet did come to be with me at that time. But very soon after, the darkest days arrived. Months with no communication at all. And I felt so alone. [00:11:52] GTS: I had no mother. And no daughter. [00:11:56] GTS: At one point, I begged her to let me know what I had to do to improve things between us, because I couldn't go on living that way. She was nice about it, but nothing really changed. When she had a baby, which was something we always looked forward to and planned to have it be something special that we would share, I rarely saw her. [00:12:21] GTS: I think I saw them four times in two years. There were eventually periods of more communication by the third baby. They needed some help. So I was invited to come for a few days now and then. But her husband always ended up getting upset with me and behaving badly. And then I wouldn't be invited anymore and didn't really want to go anymore after those unpleasant experiences. It never occurred to me that he was abusive to her. [00:12:57] GTS: It was clear early on that he was a narcissist. Thanks, Dr. Ramani. But more about her a little later, after almost five years of marriage and three babies, this became a possibility. [00:13:14] GTS: Finally, she called to say she was coming with the kids to stay with us. That was two years ago. And they ended up getting divorced. Thank God. But here is the kicker. It didn't fix anything. She still didn't like me, didn't want to confide in me, was impatient with me. She was curt and not really in touch with me much when she left our home. She didn't trust me to take care of the kids. She was, in my opinion, brainwashed against me. And it's taken two years, my son, Tracy, and his wife, Leanne, and their wise and loving influence on her, as well as extreme flexibility and patience on my part. It's not my strong suit, friends. But I'm getting better. [00:14:08] GTS: Communication, or lack thereof, plays a huge role in estrangement, misunderstandings, and unmet expectations. Can create walls that seem too high to climb. For instance, when adult children feel pressured to live up to their parents' expectations, whether about careers, whom they marry, or even their values, resentment can build. [00:14:34] GTS: And sometimes, maybe often, as parents, we aren't even aware that it's happening. In some cases, estrangement is fueled by manipulative forces. Take, for example, narcissistic partners who might isolate their significant other from their family to gain more control. This isolation can severely limit the family's ability to communicate and resolve possible conflicts. [00:15:03] GTS: This is what happened to us. Narcissistic individuals often engage in behaviors that isolate and control their partners, and one common strategy is to sabotage their significant other's relationships with their families. Some of the reasons behind the narcissist's use of these tactics are control, isolation by undermining those close relationships, the narcissist can gain more control over the partner. Isolating from the family means that the partner has fewer sources of support and perspective, making them more dependent on the narcissist. Manipulation of perception is something narcissists use to manipulate their partners into believing that their family doesn't understand, care, or support them like the narcissist does. This can create a sense of loyalty to the narcissist and alienation from the family. [00:16:09] GTS: Family members often serve as a check on abusive behavior. So by driving a wedge between the partner and their family, narcissists eliminate these potential threats to their control and influence. Narcissists also may project their own insecurities and flaws onto family members, portraying them as the ones with the problematic behaviors. [00:16:35] GTS: Bingo. This projection serves to justify the narcissist's efforts to distance his partner from her family. Narcissists might fear that family members will see through their facade and expose their manipulative behaviors. Sabotaging relationships can be a preemptive strike against being revealed. Narcissists often feel jealous of anyone else who might command their partner's attention and affection, including family members. By undermining these relationships, they aim to ensure that they remain the central figure in their partner's life. Narcissists often need to control the narrative about who they are and the nature of their relationships. By isolating their partner, they can maintain the narrative without any contradiction. [00:17:34] GTS: This behavior is typical of a broad pattern of emotional abuse and manipulation. It's very difficult to see it from the inside and extremely hard to overcome. [00:17:50] GTS: If you are dealing with a narcissistic person in your family, I urge you, I personally urge you to seek out the work of Dr. Ramani Durvasula. She's an American clinical psychologist, an author, and an expert on narcissism. She has a wonderful YouTube channel and a podcast, and she has helped me so much and many others understand and deal with and survive narcissists in our lives. I'll link to her website in the show notes. Go check her out. [00:18:28] GTS: She can save you. Save your sanity. [00:18:32] GTS: So here are some steps you can take while navigating this complex dynamic that will support your child and may keep the lines of communication open. They may even prompt a re-evaluation of the relationship with a narcissist at some point. Maintain communication, even if it's hard, even if it's strained, it's important to keep the lines open without pushing too hard. Regular non-intrusive check-ins can reassure your child that they have a safe and stable connection to return to without judgment or immediate expectations for reconciliation. Let the child know that they are loved and supported unconditionally, not just when they're in need or in crisis. Avoid criticizing the partner. [00:19:21] GTS: It can often backfire, making the child feel defensive and even more isolated. Instead, observe and ask thoughtful questions that might encourage the child to reflect on the relationship dynamics themselves. Make sure your child knows that your family home remains a safe place for them. This assurance can be crucial if they decide to leave a controlling relationship. I got to stop here because coincidentally the day that I'm recording this is, I didn't realize it, but it's two years exactly since my daughter called and came to our house and left her husband. And she sent her dad and me a text this morning, and it said, "It was two years ago that I called and asked if I could come to your house. And even though things weren't great between us, you said yes. And I will never forget that." So, keep that door open. [00:20:32] GTS: You never know. You just never know. [00:20:36] GTS: Recognize that your child is ultimately in control of her own decisions, or his. It's important to respect their decisions and offer guidance only when it's sought. [00:20:49] GTS: It can be beneficial for you as parents to seek support for yourself, such as therapists or support groups, even friends, to manage our emotions and learn effective strategies for dealing with the situation. [00:20:58] GTS: I had friends, but it was my husband, Aaron, I feel bad for him because I was obsessed with the subject for at least a year. And just every day, he would come home, and we would talk about our daughter and her husband and the situation and the latest disaster. [00:21:29] GTS: And I just, I couldn't have made it without him. [00:21:33] GTS: It's important to have a plan for emergency situations. This could include having a standing offer for your child to come and stay if they need you. [00:21:45] GTS: Or even a code word they can use if they're in immediate danger. Reconciliation isn't always possible. But when it is, it requires patience and forgiveness. Before, during, and after reconciliation, be aware that you're going to have big feelings. Besides loss, sadness, or even that relief you're going to have when things improve, I'm talking about feelings of betrayal and resentment. [00:22:19] GTS: That it ever happened at all. That they ever turned against you. That they allowed someone to come between you. That your family was basically destroyed. [00:22:31] GTS: It's not fair. And you may feel angry about that. [00:22:38] GTS: So, what are you going to do with that? [00:22:41] GTS: Well, it's important for you to acknowledge your feelings to yourself. Recognize it, process it. It's a critical first step. Seek to understand, try to understand the situation from your child's perspective. They may be acting under duress or fear or manipulation. Their childhood issues may seem ridiculous to you, but they're real to them. And remember, perception is reality. Understanding this can help temper the bad feelings of betrayal and refocus on love and forgiveness. Continue to reach out with love, even if the responses are not immediately positive. Consistent non-confrontational communication can eventually break through the barriers, erected by resentment. While maintaining communication, [00:23:40] GTS: Healing these wounds takes time. Patience and a long-term perspective are necessary, as your adult child may not immediately respond positively or even be able to recognize their own situation clearly. Consulting with a therapist or counselor can be very beneficial for navigating your feelings and developing strategies for dealing with the situation. Support groups for parents in similar situations and even books can offer comfort and advice. It's crucial to take care of your own mental and emotional health. Engage in your own hobbies, maintain your social connections, and seek professional help. [00:24:25] GTS: Again, can all contribute to a healthier mindset through all of this. [00:24:32] GTS: If reconciliation is impossible, or even not in the immediate future, prepare mentally for this possibility. That can help you manage expectations and reduce further emotional strain. Consider the role of forgiveness, both for your child and yourself. Forgiveness can be a powerful tool for emotional relief and healing, even if the relationship isn't fully restored. My daughter and I recently had a breakthrough. I had been frequently feeling angry, upset, and frustrated that I still felt like a bit player in her life. And I just [00:25:13] GTS: I kept telling myself, forget it, forget it. [00:25:16] GTS: Do your own thing. It's better than it was, but she's mostly lost to you. And then one day I just had this overwhelming feeling. It was like a light shining. I had to call her. And I said, "I need you to know this: [00:25:37] GTS: There is no blood in your life, no future boyfriend or husband, or pastor, or BFF or even a child of yours who will ever love you as much as I do. As a mother yourself now, I'm guessing you understand that? And know it to be true because it is and nothing. Nothing will ever change that." And do you know? Something shifted. It was like some of the conditioning from her husband, her ex-husband, fell away at last. And she finally saw me again. For who I am, who I have always been. Not a schemer, trying to manipulate her feelings and control her, but her loving mother with faults. Just not the ones that she'd been programmed to believe who loved her unconditionally. Forever. [00:26:45] GTS: It was a breakthrough for sure. [00:26:47] GTS: And I want to take the time to tell you about it because it's important. It's hopeful. Having finally realized, as I mentioned in the last episode, that my fantasy family life didn't allow for my children, as adults, to build their own tribes and focus on that. I'm in a better place, all around with my family. [00:27:12] GTS: Sad sometimes, but not angry and so resentful. Estrangement from adult children is a deeply personal and often painful experience, but it's also a journey that many of us are on. Loving yourself, dedicating yourself to love your child unconditionally, and working to forgive, as well as summoning the humility to recognize our own mistakes and shortcomings, [00:27:39] GTS: So we can seek forgiveness. These are my pursuits with regard to improving my relationships with my adult children and what I recommend to you. If you are estranged from your adult children, remember you're not alone. It happens to so many of us. And I'm not sure there's any greater pain. There are resources like the Facebook group, estranged parents of adult children, where you can share and learn from others' experiences. I sure did. They will provide you with support. There are also books and podcasts and I'll link to some in the show notes. And don't forget traditional or online therapy. [00:28:20] GTS: It can really help just to talk to someone. [00:28:22] GTS: I would encourage you, no matter what, to live your life, your beautiful, precious life. That goes on with or without a relationship with your kids, whether you're on good or poor or non-existent terms with your kids, don't build your world around them. Or continually mourn the loss of them. If you need to reconstruct and build your third act from scratch, focusing on your dreams and priorities, do it. Put your relationships in perspective. This is your life. And you deserve to be happy. [00:29:03] GTS: Don't let anyone or anything ruin it. This is the philosophy I eventually decided to adopt. And I'm talking about when things were bad. And my husband, Aaron, my dog, my kids with whom I stayed close, as well as some wonderful friends, and most importantly, my faith, got me through the dark alley of essentially losing my precious daughter. The truth is, no matter how bad the estrangement may be between you and your adult kids, one day, they will likely come calling. Ready, at long last, to reconnect, to forgive and forget, and accept you for who you are. [00:29:51] GTS: Until that day, there's not a whole lot you can do. So, let it go. Check in with them now and then, send birthday cards, release any expectations, and live your life. I know the grandkid part of it is tough. But until the relationship with your child rights itself, it's out of your control. Your day will come, hold on to that. Things will right themselves in time. [00:30:25] GTS: That's my 2 cents on this iceberg of an issue. Take it for what you will, but the way I look at it is this, you can allow yourself to feel terrible and have a negative perspective and be miserable or... [00:30:38] GTS: You can choose to make the most of every day of your life with hope in your heart. [00:30:43] GTS: Choose happiness, my friends, keep daring greatly. And if all else fails, get a golden. It's basically impossible to be unhappy with a golden retriever in the house. Remember, there are resources in the show notes, as well as all of my contact information. If you're estranged from your child, I know how you feel, and I care about you. So reach out if you need to talk or visit the Sixtysomething Facebook group or the Facebook support group for parents of estranged children that I mentioned. You are not alone and you will get through this. [00:31:22] GTS: Next time, on Sixtysomething, as I've promised, the episode will be a talk with my once estranged and very delightful daughter Juliet, who will be my very first guest on the podcast. We'll get into it all and how we have somehow found our way back to each other at last. See you next time. [00:31:49] GTS: My friends.